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01 June 2008 @ 10:22 pm
Supernatural University: Demon Powers, Motives, and Deals  

Supernatural University:  Demon Powers, Motives, and Deals


SPOILER WARNING!!  This class contains speculations arising in part from season four spoilers revealed by Eric Kripke in his interview with TVGuide.com on 29 May 2008. If you are staying entirely spoiler-free, do not attend this class!! (Note: Lack of attendance at spoilery seminars will not reflect adversely on any student.)



Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
Current Music: "For My Brother" by Blue October
Billie Bowtrunckle: Sam and Dean handsbowtrunckle on June 9th, 2008 08:50 pm (UTC)
Interesting discussion. I agree the technicalities of deal making have yet to be fully explained and what tidbits we do have are fragmented pieces of different contracts by different entities that are probably bound by slightly different "rules". However, it does seem like deal making necessitates two agreeable parties, one of which is demonic in nature *is curious about Sam's half demon status*.

A point I didn't see mentioned here concerns the flip side powers the supposed contract holder holds. By flip side I mean not the power to summon Hell Hounds and drag Dean's soul to Hell, but the power to kill or be prematurely prevented from killing Sam (the one thing that held the deal in place).

If the contract holder, Lilith, had the ability to make Sam "drop dead" if Dean tried to weasel out of the deal as we've been led to believe, then I wonder why she didn't she use it earlier. To me, the drop dead statement suggest some sort of omniscient power perhaps similar to the Hell Hounds finding the contratee wherever they might be hiding. Does the contract somehow prohibit the contract holder from acting prematurely until the contract comes due (why then did Lilith show up at the station looking for the boys in "JiB"?), or does the contract itself actually invoke specials powers allowing the contract holder to enforce/"play God" if the contract is breeched by the other party?

As far as Dean's deal goes, these musing are null and void because it seems Lilith simply can't kill Sam with her white flash. However, where the contract-bound power originates has bearing on who/what is actually "in charge" (the contract holder OR the contract itself). And this I think could be an important technicality for future demonic deals and Dean's resurrection.

If Lilith was also the one dangling Sam's life by a thread, then it kills me that the that threat keeping the boys at bay (and locking horns) all season was basically an unfounded threat, an illusion. I'm sure Sam will come to realize this very soon. Let the S4 angst begin!
bardicvoice: Brain hurts by <lj user=Cakehole_Cat>bardicvoice on June 10th, 2008 01:12 am (UTC)
Thanks for coming by!

I realized from reading your comment that I had automatically assumed that the enforcement power was intrinsic to the contract, meaning that if a contract term was violated, the forfeit was automatically engaged, and if a contract term was completed, the consequence automatically ensued, without the intervention of the contract holder. I also considered the contract to be like a personal services or agency one, such that it would terminate on the death of the principal - which would explain why Bobby had said that killing the contract holder would free Dean from the contract.

I also think that the contract was absolutely literal within the definition of its terms (the only ambiguous one being the definition of Dean trying to welch or weasel his way out, since we don't know what constituted welching or weaseling on his part), which would mean that nothing would have prevented Lilith or any other demon from killing either Sam or Dean before the end of the contract term. The contract was simply to restore Sam from death to life in exchange for the forfeit of Dean's soul to Hell at the end of a year; it said nothing about not killing Sam again at any time.

I also suspect that Lilith's white light power would have worked on Sam just fine had she sprung it earlier, before indulging in gratuitously tormenting him by having Dean mauled to death in front of his eyes. Before Dean died, Lilith had no difficulty in pinning Sam up against a wall, and I would bet she could have killed him, too. Her mistake, in my opinion, was assuming she had defeated him, and then taking her pleasure by torturing him with Dean's horrific death, not realizing that being forced helplessly to watch that was exactly the stimulus that would trigger an unconscious breakthrough to his powers. Suddenly, none of her power worked against him, not the telekinetic tossing nor the white light death.

That's what I've been thinking, at any rate. Who knows what's been in Kripke's mind? *grin*
Zazzazreil on June 13th, 2008 02:29 am (UTC)
Litlith and the Contract: Its nice to have someone else notice that Lilith might not be the original contract holder. I have been saying that since "Time is On My Side" and I started to wonder if I was imagining things. I agree with so much of what you are saying that I am bouncing

Sam's Immunity: I think that its interesting that Sam's immunity does not seem to be to the physical like Telekinesis which might be like pushing or holding a person with air, but extends to other aspects of Demon powers like Lilith's white light and Croatoan's Demon Virus. I can see where both the virus resistance and the light resistance would be linked to Dean but can also see where either one might just be a natural invulnerability to specific demonic attacks.

AntiChrist Sam: Heck Azazel must have wanted to have his private Miss America pagent for some reason and I bet it had to be more than just opening the gate. I really think he could have gotten anyone to do that. Rather I suspect he needed some one invulnerable to Demon powers who was powerful enough control the Demons as they burst outwards since Azazel could not cross the tracks (does this mean that demons come from the wrong side of the tracks? ^_^ couldn't resist the Deanism) So we may well be seeing Sam commanding Demons unconsciously or perhaps even consciously if it happens to be Ruby.

Reapers and Deals: We know from Supernatural that there are many Reapers so it is possible that Tess never ran into a possession before. Not every contract is for the saving of a life, in fact that seems rare. Also I am not sure that Evan's wife and Dean needed the same time of intervention, Dean needed to be returned to his body and Evan's wife needed to be cured, she had not begun to cross over yet. And then there is the question of Sam, what would it take to get Sam back? He was completely dead already, I doubt Sam was in Hell so what deals had to be made to bring Sam back from where ever he was? And is this why Azazel asked if Dean was sure that Sam was 100% pure Sammy, because there was a part that couldn't be returned? In other words does Sam still have his soul? Regardless we have also seen that under the right circumstances a Deity may be able to bring a soul back, like the Trickster in Mystery Spot. In fact if I were the Trickster I would probably be looking over my shoulder watching for Sammy right about now ^_^. So where I was going with this is that I don't think a Demon deal is needed to bring back Dean, some sort of divine intervention would work as well. Which brings me to Lilith and Dean's return. Its a cool idea but I think the Easter Egg in the last scene of "No Rest for the Wicked" clearly points to the amulet having a significant role and perhaps the intervention of a unknown Divine power.

bloodyroseredbloodyrosered on June 16th, 2008 03:25 pm (UTC)
In one interview of Kripke i read about Dean. He said that Dean will not be demon and also long time he not gona remember anything. But his trip in hell will affect to their brother relationship.
The question is good but who can dare to enter in Kripke`s mind this man is genious but he is total frak which i love by the way. The question is how Dean will come back in his own body. If CD bring him back how Sam will force him? He promise to Dean to not use his powers.
Also the way how Lilith got terified from Sam...LOL who the hell actually is Sam....